The Growlersworld Interviews

INDEX

The Growlersworld Interviews is an ongoing quest, bringing you closer to successful and creative people in all walks of life.

Rawle Austin presents...

A conversation with Paul Cowdell - The Prince of Folklore!

Paul Cowdell is an authority on all things folklore. I caught up with him to gain a deeper insight into this fascinating subject. Rawle Austin: Could you briefly introduce yourself to Growlersworld.com readers? Paul Cowdell: Hello. My name’s Paul Cowdell. I grew up in and around south London and north Kent. I’ve been living in east London for about 7 years now. I’ve worked as a musician and actor, and over the years have done a lot of other jobs to support myself.

RA: How did your interest in folklore arise?

PC: My first musical love was the blues – I played harmonica in bands – and that music has a very strong sense of tradition and adaptation, of learning from your forebears, of passing the music on.

I was already interested in those ideas before I got involved in folklore.

I’d always loved Irish music, so I was also interested in narrative songs. And then a friend took me to see Martin Carthy, who’s a wonderful singer of English folksongs and a brilliant guitarist, and it all sort of fitted into place.

Here was a tradition that spoke to me in the vernacular that I heard at home, being adapted and used for right now – it wasn’t an historical exercise, it wasn’t dry as dust.

It wasn’t particularly overstated, but it was intense and engaging. So I started visiting folk clubs, singing a bit, playing a bit of guitar, trying to learn the melodeon, just enjoying the range of songs that people wanted to sing for themselves, being part of a group of people wanting to make their own music. As part of understanding that, I went back to recordings of traditional singers and was just completely bowled over by what I heard.

Field recordings aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, but some of the really extraordinary English traditional singers – Joseph Taylor, say, who was recorded in 1908, or the Copper Family from Sussex who are still singing today – can just take you to a different place.

I like narrative songs, songs with a story, but all the best singers tell you their songs as something true, whether literally or emotionally.

From there it wasn’t too much of a leap to ask whether there might still be songs around. I’d been looking for songs from Kent and couldn’t find much in books, so I started asking around, trying to find local traditions.

Also, touring in community theatre shows gave me a chance to meet people and talk to them about local music. It was just finding the way in.

Once you actually find songs, and talk to singers about when and where they sang them, you realise they’re part of a whole way of life. You can’t understand the music without understanding the life – and vice versa.

That’s as true of a farmer singing a supernatural ballad in his cowshed as it is of a bus-driver singing country and western songs at his local karaoke night.

So, from a specific interest in songs, I started looking at people’s working practices, popular beliefs, other kinds of performance (particularly jokes and stories), what people eat and how they prepare it. I realised I was interested in every little aspect of people’s lives. RA: How would you define folklore to someone who knows nothing about it? PC: Well, that’s the sixty-four thousand dollar question. The word ‘folklore’ was coined in 1846, and pretty much ever since there have been arguments, disputes, disagreements and debates about what it means.

The word’s used for two things. Firstly, there’s the actual things that people do – the songs, riddles, proverbs, ways of cooking and eating, their stories, and so on and so forth.

Confusingly, though, we also use the same word for the study of those things. So it’s not actually wrong to say that folklore is the study of folklore, but that doesn’t get you very far.

Rather than one definition I tend to work with a group of ideas of what folklore is. It is cultural items (mostly, but not always, verbal), practised within small groups.

Quite often it gives the appearance of age because it isn’t quite the same as the prevailing culture around it.

People might sing old sea songs in the pub, then go home and watch Top of the Pops, for example. In some ways folklore isn’t an official culture, it isn’t handed down from on high.

Even that needs to be qualified, though, because it’s still hierarchical – apprentices’ initiation ceremonies, say, are definitely folkloric.

It can be disruptive of a prevailing culture – like graffiti, say – but it can also be quite conservative. It’s the little stuff of people’s real lives, not what appears in official records. Folklorists have got away from the idea that folklore is about ancient things, or the ancient origins of contemporary things. It’s much more interesting to look at what people do now and try to understand why they do it, what it means to them. One of the really astonishing things about folklore is that it can incorporate a huge range of ideas and attitudes.

I discuss with about 7 or 8 other graduate folklorists – our work overlaps in all sorts of ways, but we’re working in slightly different fields and all have a slightly different take on the subject.

After all, that celebration of minute differences is part of what we do as folklorists.

RA: Who most inspires you in the field of folklore and why?

PC: I’ve always been impressed by folklore’s general ethos. Whatever else it might be, folklore’s about people.

You’ll always have to talk to ordinary people about what they do, and that tends to keep your feet on the ground.

Although we’ve moved away from just collecting folklore to a more critical and analytical attitude towards this material, I’ve a huge respect for anyone who can document aspects of folk life in any way.

In Britain the most amazing collection of material on all aspects of traditional cultural life is that still being assembled by Doc Rowe (check out <http://www.docrowe.org.uk> to get an idea of the sheer scale of it).

Doc’s a huge inspiration in lots of ways, as well as being fascinating and charming company.

Folklore is a small field. I’ve been impressed with how friendly and open some of the big names have been as a result of that. If you’ve got something to say, the field’s small enough for them to give you space. I met Professor Carl Lindahl of the University of Houston at a graduate conference last year. He’s a big name in the field, but he had time for us, and he gave us stimulating and positive feedback. It was refreshing.

He’s a sensible and humane scholar, sensitive to the minutiae of people’s lives.

The other scholar who’s really shaped my thinking is Dr Julia Bishop, who taught me in my first semester at Sheffield.

She has the most comprehensive historical knowledge of the discipline, she’s a fantastic scholar of folksong and children’s lore and a brilliant fieldworker, and she’s also a great teacher. She’s set a benchmark to aspire to.

RA: Where do you see your love of folklore taking you? What’s your ultimate ambition in the field?

PC: My academic interest developed out of a practical interest, so I hope I’ll carry on being involved somehow, even if I don’t or can’t stay in academia.

I have so many research interests – aspects of traditional song, local beliefs, occupational customs and practices etc etc – and so many new ones keep suggesting themselves, that I couldn’t bear just to leave them unexplored.

I’ve been lucky enough to be employed as a folklorist, doing fieldwork in Kent for the Smithsonian Institution. It’s made me realise that it is possible to work as a folklorist here, and I want to continue.

The interest is definitely there – one of my fellow students is currently doing a folklore slot on local tv in north-west England – it’s just how to work with it. I think the challenge is to build on this to develop a proper public folklore programme here. Folklore should be accessible and open to anyone with an interest, and I think the membership of the Folklore Society reflects that. There’s a noble tradition of enthusiastic amateurs doing fieldwork, some of which is utterly brilliant. So whilst I don’t think folklore should be the preserve of academics, I think they’ve a role in providing an intellectual framework to develop the work of amateurs. My model here is the work of the Oral History Society, which runs training sessions for local groups, very much encouraging people to go off and do it for themselves but giving them the background to make sense of it all. I’ve already begun to give talks to non-specialist audiences, and I’d like to continue that as well as writing more academic-type articles.

At the same time, any involvement in, or discussion about, folklore will lead you to develop your ideas and your thinking about it.

As I mentioned, I’m in discussion with a number of other graduate folklorists, both here and in the US, and I’m hoping that might lead to the development of further collaborative work.

RA: You recently embarked on a folklore course, can you tell us a bit about it and your achievements whilst on it?

PC: I did a part-time MA in Folklore and Cultural Tradition at the National Centre for English Cultural Tradition (NATCECT), which is part of the English department at the University of Sheffield. It’s the only English academic centre for folklore.

The department is currently being restructured, and NATCECT’s future isn’t immediately clear. The MA isn’t running this year. I understand it will resume next year with a greater emphasis on oral history than on folklore. I did four taught modules and a dissertation. The modules covered History and Theory of Folklore, Research Methods, Folklore in Literature and Popular Culture, and the Materials of Folklore. As a part-time student I did those in the first year, then spent the second year researching and writing my dissertation on understanding traditional singing in a social context.

Specifically I studied Romney Marsh in Kent, which is where I’ve done a lot of my fieldwork.

We got plenty of opportunity to give papers at conferences. Starting with some graduate conferences I’ve now given a few papers. I’m still going to graduate conferences, and I’ve also started to give papers to international conferences.

To date I’ve given papers on folksong scholarship, aspects of folklore about rats, cannibal ballads, and my fieldwork in Kent.

I’m giving a paper in January on tongue-twisters. All of this is getting me out to meet other folklorists.

I got the Smithsonian work through contacts I’d made whilst on the course. It’s about strengthening those links. I’ve just had my results. I received distinctions across the board, and next month I graduate with an MA with Distinction.

I’d also submitted an essay for the President’s Prize, given by the Folklore Society for a piece of student work.

I’ve just heard that my essay (on dating an unpublished agricultural protest song) has won. I’ll receive my award at the Folklore Society’s Conference and AGM in Sheffield in March. RA: Can you name the one thing you’ve learnt to date, from the course, that’s made the greatest impression on you? PC: Not to exoticise people’s lives. They’re plenty brilliant enough without mysticising them. The great Victorian folklorist Joseph Jacobs once warned that ‘the folk’ is just ‘a name for our ignorance’.

RA: Why is folklore important, in your opinion?

PC: Folklore is a study of the uncelebrated and neglected aspects of our lives. I’ve long thought of my musical researches as putting a soundtrack to social history: folklore allows us to fill out the picture, giving real details that are left out of more ‘official’ histories.

People become more complex, become 3-dimensional. Right at the beginning of my course I did some research into popular beliefs.

I found out that my paternal grandfather had always turned over a coin in his pocket on seeing a new moon.

That’s a small human touch that connected him with his past, and it let me see him in a new and different way.

RA: What are your three favourite areas of folklore and why?

PC: I still love traditional song and music. I’d be listening to this music anyway - it covers every emotional state, and makes up a few of its own.

You can dance to it, the songs can make you laugh and cry, and that’s even before you start to ask about the singers.

During my course I got very interested in popular beliefs about rats in London. I’m still doing work on this, and I think I’ve become properly obsessed now, being fascinated in all aspects of folklore about rats and mice. It covers a wide range of folklore genres – so far I’ve looked at popular beliefs, graffiti, oral narratives, proverbs, blasons populaires, and songs, and I’m sure I’ve only just started to scratch the surface. The great thing about folklore is that any research could lead you to something new, so the important thing is not to rule anything out.

I’m quite surprised to find that I’ve recently been doing research into traditional wood-working, for example, and I’m finding it fascinating.

RA: Who are your three favourite folklorists of all time and why?

PC: Although I disagree with a lot of what he thought about what he did, Cecil Sharp is still the single most important person in English folksong collecting. Without him, nothing we do now would be as it is.

His collection’s massive – literally thousands of tunes and songs – and there’s still so much work to be done on it. It remains exciting 80 years after his death.

I recently came across the work of Harrie Franken, who recorded Dutch-language folksongs in the Belgian Kempenland.

He’s practically unknown in Britain, as far as I can see, perhaps because he wrote in Dutch rather than French.

His song collection is extensive and exciting, and he wrote some eminently sensible and astute things about understanding folksong. His archive is at <http://www.volksliedarchief.nl>.

Even if you don’t read Dutch, there are midi files of the melodies, so you can get something out of it. Some of the disputes within folklore, particularly about songs and ballads, have got quite passionate and heated. I think this is a sign of a healthy discipline, but occasionally the disputes have generated more heat than light. It’s always nice, then, to go back to some sound and unflashy scholarship coupled with unhysterically reliable judgement.

D. K. Wilgus’ sensible and wise book Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 was a constant resource throughout my dissertation.

Even if you want to break new ground, there’s no need to reinvent the wheel. Wilgus’ work is a good starting place for heading off in all sorts of new directions.

RA: What advice would you give to someone keen to study folklore?

PC: Read everything and listen to everyone. I’d recommend joining local and national societies. In the UK I’d say contact the Folklore Society, and the English Folk Dance and Song Society if you’re interested in music.

It’s not just that they publish interesting journals and magazines and can put you in touch with other people in the same field – they both have very good libraries where you can get access to specialist material that isn’t available in a lot of general libraries.

A lot of this stuff isn’t technically difficult, it’s just hard to get hold of it.

It may be difficult finding somewhere to study it as an academic discipline (although I know there are some good courses in Scotland, particularly), but ask around. There are folklorists lurking in some strange places within academia (in the UK there are more folklorists than folklore departments, so a lot of them end up in Anthropology and English), so see who’s around and who could help you. This is about curiosity as much as it’s about what’s in people’s lives. It’s possible to go out and start doing field research off your own bat, so start working out what your own interests and preconceptions are.

What are you asking people, and why? Does it affect what they tell you? How do you understand what they’ve said?

The most important thing about fieldwork is that you aren’t collecting from people, you’re not taking something away from your informants. You’re inviting them to share something with you.

That’s a much more fruitful way of looking at it, as well as being more respectful of them. This is their lives, after all.

RA: How do you like to spend your spare time?

PC: Ha ha. My spare time has been spent developing obsessive hobbies like folksong that have then taken up all my time and led me into whole new worlds.

I don’t think time is ever really spare.

Having said that, I’ve been doing evening classes in Dutch for a couple of years now. I went into them because I was interested in Belgian history and needed to add to the French I already read. My Dutch is still fairly atrocious, but as it improves I’ve started reading work by Dutch and Belgian folklorists, and started listening to Dutch-language folksongs. I was already listening to French-language songs, so it’s enabling me to extend my understanding of Belgian musical traditions.

I’d like to be in a position where my French and Dutch were good enough for me to be able to do field research in Belgium, France and the Netherlands.

I’ve also been collaborating with surrealist groups in London. I’ve always written poetry, experimenting with automatic writing techniques, but now I’ve started taking photographs too, and I’ve created a couple of collective games.

I’ve been reading surrealist works for years, and now I’m getting more actively involved. You can see some of the stuff I’ve been involved in at <http://robberbridegroom.blogspot.com/>.

I think that every moment of your life should be spent doing something that fascinates and stimulates. It’s about being inspired, about living as rich a life as you can.

RA: And finally, any last words of wisdom you’d like to leave us with?

PC: André Breton once said that ‘Imagination isn’t a gift but par excellence an object of conquest’. Go and conquer your imagination.

Get excited about things, because there’s a lot of things out there to get excited about.

Check out Paul Cowdell's amazing blog, A Fiery Flying Roll, for some surrealist goodness!

Lee Travers - Sailing his way to Musical Endeavours>

<Nick Hirst - Climbing to New Heights

[Back to Top]

[GrowlersWorld Business]

[Top 20 Charts: Site Statistics]

[Disclaimers, Small Print and Legal Stuff]

[Contact]

[Home Page]